On Mar 27, 2014, at 5:22 PM, Jed Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

Barry Smith <[email protected]> writes:

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On Mar 27, 2014, at 5:03 PM, Jed Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

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Barry Smith <[email protected]> writes:

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If a user calls XXX() and it doesn’t do what they expect, how do they figure out what is wrong? It is called debugging and usually it is because what they expect is not what it does.

I have to say, my first instinct in such cases, especially when working with an unfamiliar code base, is that the line invoking the viewer is never reached

Trivia to check in the debugger.

Yes, but already cumbersome when the front-end is Python, the program is launched through a script that always creates at least 9 processes, the build system doesn't support simultaneous debug and optimized installs, and rebuilds take hours. Suddenly you're jumping through hoops (each one manageable if disconcerting) for what should have been a 10-second task. I don't understand why people bring such things upon them, but the things we shrug off as 10-second queries are not always. Yes, it's "their" own damn fault for building a monstrosity, but there is sometimes amazing value in simple reasoning about user code.

You shouldn’t be allowed to start implementing a complicated nested “framework system” until you clearly understand how you are going to debug in it. The community should just not tolerate that kind of crap.

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Sometimes we want XXView(X,V) to mean "Hey X, anything you feel like talking about?" and other times we mean "X, serialize yourself!”

Maybe this is related to the specific type of viewer and even format.

Indeed, some sort of attribute of the viewer. It may be tricky to know which semantic is best in all cases, but I think many are clear.

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Also it is related to either 1) serialize yourself so you can be totally recreated (true serialization) versus 2) serialize enough of yourself so I can visualize you. We usually do 2) currently and in that case it is reasonable sometimes to not view everything.